Before I started learning Japanese/Chinese, I had never studied before in my life XD (considering the American school system, it's never been really necessary) it's kinda hard to get used to it. A study tool I recommend to everyone is the Declan Japanese software series, it includes Declan's Japanese Dictionary, Declan's Japanese Flashcards, Read/Write Hiragana, Read/Write Kanji, and Read/Write Katakana. You can either buy it (expensive) or find it for free on torrent or usenet. Also if you're looking for vocabulary lists, you should check out www.rippasama.com, it has a lot of lists, for beginners as well as more advanced learners. ^^
emiko
· 1 year ago
Thanks I'll check it out
mmnessa
· 1 year ago
I'm going to venezuela over the summer, haven't been there for so long so I think it's gonna be hard for me to actually set my mind to study ANYTHING at all. I like the websites you listed, and I would also add Japanprobe ( I assume a lot of people know about it). I like their videos and it was thanks to Japanprobe that I found "The Japanese Tradition" and "Gyagu manga biyori" which are pretty hilarious
koichi
· 1 year ago
Yeah, I follow them, but I'm often not happy with the quality of their articles. I suppose they are supposed to be a "news" website, and they do that, but they need more depth in their articles to get on my "favorites" list :)
Digger
· 1 year ago
Just the kind of blog I need. ^_^
My best tip for how to stop watching anime/sleeping/watching birds and actually commit myself to a study session is to promise myself, "Just study for 15 mins. If you don't want to continue after 15 minutes, you have permission to stop." And then keep my promise. If those 15 minutes turned into boredom, I'd quit. But that's never happened. After 15 minutes go by, I find myself saying, "Just a little more, just a little more...." until hours have gone by.
But you have to keep your promises to yourself! If you need to stop, stop. That way you'll trust yourself the next time you tell yourself, "Just 15 minutes...."
Fredy
· 1 year ago
You could always just go to Japan... realize how intense Japanese is (by intense I also mean awesome in a way) and then that inspires you to study more so you can understand stuff by the time you go back the next time. :D So good post. I think 30 minutes a day 5 days a week is a good plan. I may start a blog. I'd have nothing to say the first couple of posts though since my Japanese is extremely basic. May just be hiragana and katakana, which I say everyone go over in the beginning. Also, for writing practice, I like this website: http://www.tokyomokyo.com/index.php?option=com_...
Livvi_Spatula
· 1 year ago
Actually, since graduating I've been able to devote more time to watching ani- I mean learning Japanese, and I've found that you don't need words to communicate after all. Just a wide range of grunts. Everyone knows that summer is a time to do as little as possible, and what better way to communicate than in grunts? XD
mariedesu
· 1 year ago
I work in a call center which is usually very slow. So I pretty much just study all day at work! I really love your site/s and videos by the way... Thanks!
Tereza
· 1 year ago
I wish I could... No! I definitely will learn the basics of Japanese this summer... 1) I have more time for it. 2) This article was inspiring. 3) I'll use that "guidetojapanese" ... It looks very useful for a beginner like me. 4) Thanks for "tofugu". 5) Thanks for "tofugu".
Chimiko
· 1 year ago
I want to go to Japan next summer. I'm earning the money little by little. We'll see how it goes~
kevinnwhat
· 1 year ago
um i dont even want to imagine what a plane ticket to japan is now with everything going on
Chimiko
· 1 year ago
I think it's about 700-1000-ish, depends on when you buy it I guess...
kevinnwhat
· 1 year ago
oh yeah and i cant agree more with the dont take a break. I used to study for like 2 hours a day, and it was fine i loved it. And then i started lacrosse and had finals and stuff so needed to stop for like a month and a half. And now as much as iwant to continue, its so hard to start again haha, i keep delaying it! cause im so used to not studying anymore
trust me-no breaks! they'll only hurt you >_<
zattsu-ooru
· 1 year ago
The only phrase that has ever made me laugh out loud, as seen in an anime forum;
"You are so baka"
Oh, man. Anyways, as for the summer i plan on finishing the kanji left (it's over a thousand but it doesn't seem too many, now) and watching 14 movies by Kurosawa, 2 by Ozu, 5 by Iwai, 2 by Aoyama and whatever i find by Wakamatsu. I'm also gonna get on further into China and try whatever i can in Chinese. And i gotta study some poems in Anient Greek and Latin for the next year in school. Lots of time i'll spent on a chair. Thank goodness i hate hot weather. Have a nice summer, everyone.
GoddessCarlie
· 1 year ago
What about us peeps rocking down under? i'm cold! My brain is too frozen to study!!
I lie. Learning Japanese keeps me warm at night.
Ank
· 1 year ago
That's actually a perfect idea for me to get a head's start on my Japanse major! I'm definitly going to commit myself to the kanji, since that'll make the rest a hell of a lot easier! =D Thanks Koichi m(_ _)m <33
JackTamaki
· 1 year ago
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it yet, but Concordia Langauge Villages has a great program for students 18 years old and younger for Japanese. They have both two-week and four-week immersive study programs in Minnesota. There is also a one-week program for younger children, and a four-week program to Japan. Both four-week programs meet the requirements for receiving high school credits, but you'll have to check with your school to see if your school will accept your summer study with CLV for high school credit. It's too late to sign up for this year, but keep the program in mind in planning for next year! CLV offers programs for Arabic, Chinese, Danish, English, Finnish, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Portugese, Russian, Spanish, and Swedish. It's a very very good organization and I would recommend it to anyone wanting to studying foreign languages in the states. http://clvweb.cord.edu/prweb/japanese/japanese.asp
Also, for college-age students, Middlebury has a well-known and well respected (and intense) summer language immersion program for many languages, including Japanese.
emiko
· 1 year ago
my class starts tomorrow! i'm so excited! i hope to learn more during the summer!
Eevee
· 1 year ago
If I was really studying Japanese at the moment, these would be some really useful tips, Koichi! haha. I get what you're saying, but the whole 'schedule/study a little bit at a time' method doesn't work with me. I like to live a fairly unstructured life. I'm one of those people that can pick up a textbook months later and still remember about 80% or more of what I learned. Thankfully. But, for tofugu's sake, next year when I finally do start taking some lessons I will think about this article and try to review, at least once.
Regarding the whole "reaching native speaker's level" topic, it is very true. Unless you were raised in a home where Japanese was spoken regularly by native speakers, it's pretty unlikely to ever get to the point where you are seamlessly integrated into the language. I mean, thinking about English, most of us native speakers don't even understand our own language sometimes! Truly, none of us will ever be able to speak a language perfectly, no slip-ups or things unknown. It's human to make mistakes and not to be perfect, let's just accept that and move on!
Stephen
· 1 year ago
I love all the drama that is going along with my studying of Japanese. Anyways what does fluency in language really mean? When I open an English dictionary most of the words in there confuse me. Its been my language my whole life I don't understand it and I think people from different countries who use it speak funny. I always ask my wife who is Japanese and who had lived there for twenty eight years how people's Japanese is from foreign countries and none of them sound like native speakers to her. Even people who were raised in Japan and then moved to the states Japanese sounds funny to her. Oh and of course when she talks to someone from Tokyo she uses her own dialect so there is confusion among the Japanese with the Japanese, just like if I talked to someone from Georgia Id be confused with their crazy accent. So who cares no one is perfect or totally fluent in any language unless they invented the damn thing themselves. So what I guess I'm really saying who cares. Yet I enjoyed reading the confrontation and don't mind if it continues cause Its forcing me to come back and check up on it.
koichi
· 1 year ago
Well, at least for me, I was arguing the difference between "native level" and "fluency." I think fluency refers to the ability to communicate at a fairly normal level and in most "normal" situations. This is totally attainable, totally possible - So, not understanding Georgia dialect doesn't make you not fluent, and because you both share the same language, you would both be native speakers in it, even if you speak different variations of of it. Really interesting stuff, communication between dialects. I suppose what I was trying to say is that reaching native level in a language requires more than just the ability to speak and communicate - it requires one to understand the cultural implications behind what is said as well. crazy stuff like that. anyways, language is super crazy and complicated, haha.
Djarno
· 1 year ago
Does anyone else have this problem?
When I am speaking Japanese, I will somethings deliberately bring out my American accent. I just kind of have this unconscious feeling like I am patronizing Japanese people when I speak too acurately. It feels like when you imitate someone as a way to make fun of them. It bugs me even though I know a native speaker would never see it as insulting and would probably understand me 10 times better. And then there are words like ケーキ which are transliterated directly from English and I wonder if I should pronounce it like I would in English or say it with the superfluous (at least in English) u/o/i. I guess it's just a neurosis that I'll have to get over.
Djarno
· 1 year ago
By the way, Koichi, I luv ya, man, but I think you should follow your own advice from (the now defunct, I guess) Vlogly and ignore the haters. Let this guy get his attention by writing a thesis on "How to Learn a Foreign Language by Abandoning Your Life and Making Yourself Miserable."
Lenners
· 1 year ago
Well, I hope my trip to Japan helps my elementary-level Japanese a bit ^^" Thanks for all the helpful suggestions, Koichi!
oo0speed0oo
· 1 year ago
I actually heard about "alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/" before I heard about "tofugu.com" I actually started his method of trying to learn 2,000 Japanese Symbols before learning anything else. But i had tons of questions while learning these characters but I keep studying them. I'm up to about 150 characters (I haven't been studying lately, to much work...jetlag is a bitch) and what keeps me motivated is that i can look at certain signs and symbols around New York and get the jest of whats going on. Anyway it pains me to see people arguing over personal opinion. There are always going to be exceptions to every rule. Just let it be, we are all people wanting to learn a language for more reasons than one. Just learn the language and argue about what sushi to pick tonight at a restaurant.
emiko
· 1 year ago
hmm . . . it seems someone was being a little mean . . . but you really shouldn't take it to heart koichi . . . some people just have there own opinions that they force upon other people . . .
as for the whole 'native level' issue i don't really understand what the big deal is . . . some people can just naturally pick up languages or they worked extra hard in order to obtain their language skills . . . not everyone can do it, only a few talented gifted souls can . . . but as long as you put in a good amount of effort you'll do fine . . .
btw . . . i just started my class! . . . it is so much fun! . . . i can't wait for tomorrow!
koichi
· 1 year ago
awesome and congrats! I hope it works out well.
emiko
· 1 year ago
thank you very much! that helps me a lot! . . . i'm off to study now
Joe mcartney
· 1 year ago
classes dont help learn languages that much
emiko
· 1 year ago
i believe it all depends on the way your mind translates information . . . also, some people work better in groups while others learn better independently . . . sometimes people need to be encouraged by peers, so they take a class . . . others may get distracted by others during a lesson, so they may choose independent studies . . . both ways work, some just prefer the one over the other
Djarno
· 1 year ago
Classes may not but grades certainly do. At least, if you plan on working in an industry where the most important thing you get out of college is a GPA.
emiko
· 1 year ago
you have a point . . . but i'm not one to really worry too much about the grade, since i'm taking the class for my own sake . . . i like the language, but my high school doesn't have japanese! . . . so i decided to take a college class during the summer . . . it is extremely fast paced! . . . i just hope i can keep up!
yonasu
· 1 year ago
The hardest part for me is to actually find the time to study during the summer. It's hard to study on a daily basis when you're working, sometimes I work from 11 AM to 10 PM so I'm too tired to study after work. However, I've quit my job, my schedule ends at July 11 so I'll be able to focus on learning Japanese soon!
When I study I need to follow a schedule, I add everything to my calendar because if I don't, I end up saying "I'll do it later" to myself. Using a calendar helps me focus even if I don't feel like studying at all, skipping calendar events makes me feel bad while skipping something I just said to myself (like "I'll study in 2 hours") isn't too bad.
emiko
· 1 year ago
Hang in there at your work until July 11th
stshores24
· 1 year ago
I agree with some of the comments above: getting started is the key; once I'm started, I can roll on for a few hours, I just have to say 'turn off Twitter, turn off email, turn off Mixi, and get to work!' :)
Caitlin
· 1 year ago
I definitely think that review is helpful. I'm frequently reviewing vocabulary because I find it's the first to go. :(
Kitam
· 1 year ago
hmm.. this post didnt end up in the right spot... but.. yay for being humble
tomususan
· 1 year ago
In my opinion 30 minutes a day ... not very much I prefer to learn more. Nice article
pixie_styx17
· 1 year ago
whoops... accidentally managed to post the same comment twice XD not sure how to delete though.
Wafukari
· 1 year ago
Oh, Koichi, being responsible and trying to get us in the studying mood. Well, it worked XD.
Jamaipanese
· 1 year ago
thanks for the tips you have inspired me to study more japanese this summer
Dark
· 1 year ago
I have been putting off learning Japanese again since I took my final exams this year. Just starting to get into the books again. Lang-8 looks like an excellent site, thanks for that.
Mohamed
· 1 year ago
I know what you mean! Ever since my exams back in April, I haven't opened a single textbook. I've been reading alot on mixi and sending messages in Japanese. But because I haven't practiced my Japanese, I forgot how to write over 20 Kanjis, but i can still read 90% of the 310Kanjis I've learned in the past 2 years.....SO no more breaks for, a 30min study session is an awesome idea!
Izeyhec
· 1 year ago
wish i had read this 2 weeks ago when i decided to take a 3 day break when i was hangin out at my friends and ended up takin a 2 week break that left me lost to where i left off at
Terin Lyr D'Amico
· 1 year ago
For me fluency in a foreign language is about being able to clearly and correctly communicate your thoughts in the target language, to be able to quickly and accurately read in the target language, and to be able to listen to a foreign speaker and to be able to accurately understand the conversation. Does it require native level fluency to the point that your own speech patterns are indistinguishable from a native speaker? Absolutely not, though it would be a lofty goal. I studied Arabic at the Defense Language Institute at Presidio of Monterey a long time ago, and after studying Arabic for 6 hours a day, five days a week for 16 months, I can assure you that I was nowhere near a native speaker. But, I was able to communicate on a wide variety of subjects and understand most of what I heard (assuming the speaker was not trying to talk in a subject that contained a lot of specialized, unfamiliar vocabulary). Learning a language is about bridging the gap between two cultures and trying to meet others on their grounds. Most countries have a low opinion of Americans, and think that most Americans “expect” them to speak English. When you attempt to speak in their language, you build instant rapport. I have experienced this first hand with speaking Arabic in the Middle East, and also speaking Korean here in Korea. Just my two cents on the comment of "native fluency".
I'm just beginning learning Japanese and look forward to the new experiences that will bring.
~
· 1 year ago
Haha, trouble concentrating on Japanese? It's like the opposite for me. I'm supposed to be doing math, but I end up doing Japanese the entire day. The worst part is that only one of my friends (that I have regular contact with) is trying to learn Japanese, and she gave up on hiragana, katakana, and kanji. In fact, she has decided to start learning 'later.' That means I haven't had a lot of practice (I'm not allowed to buy stuff, including books, online.) and I forget a lot... but I'm going to start using that Lang-8 site now.
What you really need is a guide on how to pull away from Japanese and do boring stuff... like conic sections.
koichi
· 1 year ago
heh, if I had to choose between math and Japanese, I'd be practicing Japanese a lot more I think :)
spacejay4000
· 1 year ago
i studied japanese in college, but only for a year (boo) so i'm still at a very low level and i think that i've gotten lower than that since i havent studied since i left college almost 5 months ago!! *fail*
but i really want to learn it! and i know that i cant through osmosis, though that would be freaking awesome if i could!! anywho, i really appreciate your blogs and vlogs cuz i've learned a lot from you and are using your resources. i did just randomly come across it as i was searching youtube for japanese lessons and your panda hat and the title "learn japanese while watching anime NOT!" really intrigued me and i havent gone back since. and i'm so glad that i havent! ive watched your koichiben vids as well and i really want to be able to understand that so i'm going to try to do some hard core studying!! (sorry this is soooo long! it wasnt intentional!! ^_^)
In one of your previous videos, koichi, you commented that you thought your Japanese could never be native level. You also said said Japanese people who come to America would never have native level English. Speak for yourself. You may always have flawed, broken Japanese, but some of us won't. No offense intended.
koichi
· 1 year ago
Sorry you think my Japanese is "flawed and broken," even though you "mean no offense." Quite the harsh tone for not meaning any offense. hmm.
I certainly don't think it's the best it could be, and I'm working hard at it, but I also don't think I'll ever become as perfect as someone who was born in Japan and raised speaking Japanese. Even if you are able to speak fluently, which is much much different from speaking at native level, it's very difficult and rare to understand all of the cultural and societal implications behind language without having been raised in that culture. You could spend your entire life studying the language, and never understand these things 100%. I even know non-Japanese who have lived in Japan for 20+ years. Their Japanese is great. Very fluent. Still, there is always something that makes their Japanese a little different from Japanese natives.
Still, if you reach native Japanese ability, please let me know. I'll be waiting for your proof. And jeesh, don't comment as anonymous. Not helping your credibility very much.
none
· 1 year ago
"Still, if you reach native Japanese ability, please let me know. I'll be waiting for your proof. And jeesh, don't comment as anonymous. Not helping your credibility very much."
My first language is Japanese...my second is English.
none
· 1 year ago
Anywho, you are right. I was a bit harsh there. Sorry and goodbye. Good luck on your vids.
kevinnwhat
· 1 year ago
i reached fluent native level japanese by watching naruto, only took 2 weeks.
Tofugu_Erin
· 1 year ago
Ugh, I'm removing my long disgruntled reply to this comment. If you're the owner of this anonymous (boo) comment and want to know/discuss what I said, let me know. If not, I'll just let it lie. It's not worth expending energy on right now.
none
· 1 year ago
Yes, I am interested in what you said. Please fill me in.
Tofugu_Erin
· 1 year ago
Ok, well here it is. It's a little disjointed toward the end, haha. I was getting all, "Meh, I'm over it" and just started rambling.
1. Anonymous commenting kind of bugs me.
2. While I definitely feel that Japanese students can communicate at a level which would lead native speakers to assume they are fluent, there will always be problems with their speaking, small or not. One of my professors (a Japanese linguist) gave a lecture a few semesters ago about something she had learned at a linguistics conference. What it boiled down to was that, at a fundamental level, native Japanese speakers and Japanese students approach the language differently, by which I mean that their brains use completely different pathways when hearing/speaking Japanese. This difference is uncorrectable; Japanese students, fluent as they may seem/be will never reach complete fluency, and they will never be as "good" at the Japanese language as native speakers are. And it's probably the same for all languages.
I don't know, this is just my (probably incoherent, as I just woke up) two cents on the issue. I agree that the video would probably have been better without that last comment about the likeliness of achieving Japanese fluency. Your hostile tone (despite your half-hearted "no offense intended") and exaggerated criticism of Koichi's Japanese (which, while not fluent, is more than sufficient for communication), though, makes me feel like you were disturbed/threatened by the idea that you'll never have "perfect" Japanese. And, hey, I might be wrong, but you probably won't. You can come pretty close, though. The comment, while flippant, definitely wasn't meant to be taken personally, so I suggest you don't let it keep you up at night.
Ank
· 1 year ago
I think what Koichi meant was that you'll never attain native level, because you're not confronted with that particular language in all kinds of dimensions of life. Or do you happen to know all e.g. kitchen appliances like a colunder, spatula, etc. in Japanese/English?
none
· 1 year ago
Oh you want proof Koichi? Below is a website by someone who learned Japanese to a native-level.
It's okay to be wrong some times. By the way, come to think of it, we are both correct. Yes, if you learn Japanese by studying "30 minutes 5 times a week" you will sound foreign. However, if you study a language like the people above did, then you can have native level Japanese/English.
"it's very difficult and rare to understand all of the cultural and societal implications behind language without having been raised in that culture."
Quite frankly, I have never heard anything so unlogical. I think comments like that are just to protect your own insecurities in your Japanese ability. Seriously, lets take English for an example. Their is not any magical "cultural and societal implications" behind language. Languages are just a set number of sounds and symbols that any human being can learn. For more info, check out the following link.
Sorry, thought you were the other way around. If you are in fact a Japanese person that writes English this well, then I'm really impressed! You speak English very well. Still, I wish you wouldn't post anonymously - for all I know, you could be some American with too much time on their hands making things up about yourself. In fact, that's what I think is the case, until you prove otherwise :)
"Quite frankly, I have never heard anything so unlogical. I think comments like that are just to protect your own insecurities in your Japanese ability."
First of all, "unlogical" isn't a word. Second, I'm not sure where I've ever been insecure. In fact, I am very open about my japanese level, and I've been taking the time to try and improve it. As for the alljapaneseallthetime links you keep spamming (is this your website, or something?), I can't really comment, since I've never seen the person speak, nor have I met the author in person. It's a nice blog, sure, but doesn't really prove what you're saying.
"Seriously, lets take English for an example. Their is not any magical "cultural and societal implications" behind language. "
If you don't see the cultural and societal implications behind language, then I suppose there's nothing for me to say to you about it. If you don't understand it, then you don't understand it. That's cool, like I said, it's very difficult to understand if you don't grow up in that culture. Maybe it requires study in linguistics to notice it as well.
I'll concede a little bit for you, though. Every once in a while, once in a very very blue moon, someone will reach "native level" of another language, as in, there is absolutely no way to tell that that person is speaking the said language as a second language. Maybe one in a million language learners can achieve this. Very rare, right? On the other hand, MANY people can become "fluent" in another language, i.e., the ability to communicate well/comfortably in the said second language. There's a big difference between the two, I think, and the former is almost impossible to achieve. I'm not here to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm just trying to be realistic and help people. For most people, when you try too hard at something all at once, they will get burned out and quit. That's just how it is.
Lastly, I'm not here to insult you, but apparently you ARE here to insult me. I already think you're lying about your identity, and your regular pot-shots at me certainly aren't helping your credibility. I'm out here, in the public, everything already on the table. I'm open about my history, my language ability, etc. It's easy for someone to try and discredit me from the shadows and make claims that can't be backed up. That's all I think this is right now, I think everyone would appreciate if you came out into the open. C'mon, I don't even know where you live! I don't know your history with English language study. I've never heard you speak English. if I wasn't on youtube/didn't provide picture evidence, I could very easily say I am a Japanese native who learned English this well. Maybe you'd gain yourself some credibility if you came out, eh? :)
zattsu-ooru
· 1 year ago
I do agree with the rareness of someone linguistically skillful enough to get that a good grip of any language. It would most certainly involve the person having great cultural knowledge of the country in question, and a great deal of, should i say, building up your own perspective on the country's ethics and ideals. But, frankly, "rareness" is overestimated. Look at Tofugu. How many people here don't have English as a mother tongue and are still able to come across as perfectly (whatever that means) fluent, native speakers? I have seen people from Sweden, Finland etc. And of course a more solid example; I have never been to America or England, nor have i ever met an American or British. I got where i am now by taking in information, by being sincerely interested in English, it's arts and sciences, the people it represents and their history. I firmly believe that it's not due to any special quality that we have (besides of course any "genetic" characteristcs that by their nature should be overlooked, since they mean nil if not cultivated), but to the personal interest we put in. The fact that not too many people develop such deep knowledge (which resembles more wisdom than just "knowing") is because not too many people are sincerely, wholeheartedly interested in making a language a very part of themselves, essentially getting to understand a part of the world better. Anyways, i just wanted to state my views because you presented the "rareness" of linguistic freedom in a way that kinda bugged me. Maybe you were just trying to come off as warm and polite, but don't put the possibility that way down. And if you just wanted to sound realistic, then here i am to say that i handle English well enough and i know others who do as well. And i'm sure the same goes for any language. And finally, let me say that i'm so glad that sites like to Tofugu are out there, allowing us to develop ideas like these and talking to other people about them. Tofugu rocks in many ways :)
GodoHell
· 1 year ago
I have to say, this drama is a little off-putting. I'm not blaming Koichi at all (seeing as it was a *very* personal attack. The fact that anyone would say something so rude is a little distressing. That aside, I have another example of learning other languages and never becoming fully fluent in them. I've been studying German for six years and spent the first four months of this year in Germany studying abroad. Now, six years is nothing as far as learning German. I know for a solid fact that, although I'm able to communicate fairly well with Germans, I'm nowhere near perfect. However, the Germans I spoke to (most of them anyways) have been studying English since their equivalent of elementary school. Even Germans who would be considered, for all intents and purposes, 'fluent' still had problems sometimes understanding what I was saying when I spoke in English. For the most part, I could speak English at a regular pace and they would understand me but every once in a while I would have to stop and explain something to them or translate a word for them. So... Long story short, I'm in complete agreement with Koichi. :)
JackTamaki
· 1 year ago
I also agree whole-heartedly with Koichi. Words are always worth more than face value, and it's hard to understand the deep subtextual meaning of words unless you grew up using them. I hope that one day I can become fluent in at least Spanish and Japanese, but I strongly doubt that I would ever be able to communicate in Spanish or Japanese in a way that would make me linguistically indistinguishable from a native speaker.
kevinnwhat
· 1 year ago
koichi laying down the law right there
none
· 1 year ago
lol yeah I kinda made the word unlogical up. Anywho, I am sorry. I shouldn't of come to your site and started all of this trouble. Also to answer your question, no, that is not my blog. So yeah, I am sorry. By the way, some of your vids are pretty funny. keep up the good work!
St
· 1 year ago
My $0.02: "Oh you want proof Koichi? Below is a website by someone who learned Japanese to a native-level.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-j... That's funny though because the author of that website doesn't provide any proof that he actually speaks Japanese at a native speaker's level. What he does do though is pimp amazon books with referral links that will probably bring in a good amount of money from people who buy into his ideas. That's probably not a bad business plan, because a lot of people who study Japanese, from my perception, are pop culture afficionados (which is of course fine) with little motivation to study hard and little tolerance for delayed gratification (which is terrible).
Second, and I know this sounds condescending and conservative, some of us just don't want to learn "real Japanese" if by real Japanese one means the Japanese used in anime and manga. Or the Japanese used by Japanese young people. Some people simply prefer formal, erudite Japanese with heavy use of keigo. That's just my opinion of course, and I'm probably an old fogey for thinking that way. Still, I think it's quite assuming for people to think that informal speech is somehow "more real" than grown-ups' speech. You won't learn the latter by just watching anime 8 hours a day (assuming you'll learn anything at all that way if you're over 16...). Our teachers always told us that extracurricular material (e.g. TV) are necessary to enhance your abilities, but cannot be used as a basis for learning any language.
Totally agree with you on the "formal japanese" part (well, I agree with everything else, too, I suppose). I'm drafting up an article about why you should learn "textbook japanese" or "formal japanese." It's really important if you want to not make a fool out of yourself and be able to talk like an adult (or a productive member of society, for that matter). Thanks for your comment, and thanks for your input as well!
Kitam
· 1 year ago
i think that its hard for some native ppl to learn their native language ^^ honestly.. my broken ebonics vs correct grammar, as high as it may be.. so totally suck, the only thing that seperates me from someone not from here is my confidence when aproaching words to interact with others.. i dont have to use the right words all the time, but theres little reason to do that.. there are things i can say to certain ppl in a certain way.. that if i say to others, the same exact way, they wouldnt understand a word.. understanding the difference between conversing between age/gender, age/race, gender/racial preference, social status/cultural interests, etc etc.. that has alot to say about speaking natively.confidence and knowing when to take your vernacular handbook and toss it out the window and just be relaxed and at the drop of a dime change it yet again if the situation calls for it., that takes a lot of understanding and reasoning from a native speaker alone.. maybe you CAN imitate accurately enough to fool ppl in low pressure situations.. but be interrogated having to embody multiple points of views mentally and render yourself to expression beyond just speaking and writing.. but body gestures and movements.. a person can NOT break the facts and habits behind what formed their squishy little brains first without their being a special reason for it. to clam to be a native speaker is somewhat insulting to anyones language without a person throwing theres whole self into first trying the falsify their authenticity amoungst a groups or groups of ppl that live a totally different life than that whom wants to claim native.. if your super young.. yea.. possibly. i think you can do a good transition between then.. but you are bound to say things a bit awkwardly no mater what.. if you think in english, and translate it to what fits.. or visa versa then that alone says something about your nativeness... and if you discard your original background and culture for anothers.. just to reach this lvl to communicate.. then something is very wrong with you...
Kitam
· 1 year ago
Im hopeless and will never amount to anything. i will never make it to japan because i have no talents and my kneecaps are inverted so i cant even kick it with ppl within the culture without putting my foot in my mouth, i study Japanese now and it will take forever for me to learn the basic things because my brain is missing the whole west hemisphere.. so retartded <--- being humble O_o
haha ima learn this as efficiently as possible. dont know if its quicker to learn to speak it first and write it sometime later. what you think?
emiko
· 1 year ago
Maybe it is just good to be humble overall, maybe the more often you are humble the more second nature it becomes. You're good at being humble though. At first I was worried that you hated yourself, but that doesn't seem to be the case ^^.
koichi
· 1 year ago
definitely should learn to read first / at the same time. There will be people who tell you otherwise, but they are probably illiterate :)
Being able to read / write will really help with grammar, too. Gives you a good idea who the structure of the language stands up, and overall will give you a much deeper foundation.
Kitam
· 1 year ago
okay cool.. and im not very knowledgeable but Kanji is the same but different from another way of writing japanese?.. but it seems kanji is more difficuly to learn i think.. if i chose to learn this.. then would anyone understand what i write or would that be like a foreign language to japanese ppl whom use the other system of writing. let me know if im not making sense
emiko
· 1 year ago
umm . . . In a previous post Koichi covered the importance of learning Kanji. In japanese things may be spelled the same in hiragana, but they have different meanings. So Kanji is more precise than hiragana. For instance, bridge, chopstick, and edge are all 'hashi.' In order to know the difference different Kanji are used. I hope I explained that right. I'm pretty new to Japanese myself. Hope I was of some help. Also try looking for the post. It might be of more help ^^
Kitam
· 1 year ago
how much free time do you have online >.<.. i was thinking of starting a little japanese learning group soon, obviously to benifit myself, my selfish motive.. but in all im sure alot of ppl would have good info to include as well as recieve, just from this area alone. i think its feasible
emiko
· 1 year ago
hmm . . . Well, during the summer I have a ton of free time on the computer, but I have a lot less time during the school year. But if you do start one be sure to tell me, I'll try to see if I can find the time to join. It sounds fun!
Kitam
· 1 year ago
YAY! 4 Fun!!! you much more awesomer than correct grammar will allow me to express
emiko
· 1 year ago
hmm . . . i'm not sure what your saying . . . so confused
Kitam
· 1 year ago
im saying ill be sure to tell you.. and thanks for volunteering to be a part of it
All Comments
I like the websites you listed, and I would also add Japanprobe ( I assume a lot of people know about it). I like their videos and it was thanks to Japanprobe that I found "The Japanese Tradition" and "Gyagu manga biyori" which are pretty hilarious
My best tip for how to stop watching anime/sleeping/watching birds and actually commit myself to a study session is to promise myself, "Just study for 15 mins. If you don't want to continue after 15 minutes, you have permission to stop." And then keep my promise. If those 15 minutes turned into boredom, I'd quit. But that's never happened. After 15 minutes go by, I find myself saying, "Just a little more, just a little more...." until hours have gone by.
But you have to keep your promises to yourself! If you need to stop, stop. That way you'll trust yourself the next time you tell yourself, "Just 15 minutes...."
So good post. I think 30 minutes a day 5 days a week is a good plan.
I may start a blog. I'd have nothing to say the first couple of posts though since my Japanese is extremely basic.
May just be hiragana and katakana, which I say everyone go over in the beginning.
Also, for writing practice, I like this website: http://www.tokyomokyo.com/index.php?option=com_...
1) I have more time for it.
2) This article was inspiring.
3) I'll use that "guidetojapanese" ... It looks very useful for a beginner like me.
4) Thanks for "tofugu".
5) Thanks for "tofugu".
trust me-no breaks! they'll only hurt you >_<
"You are so baka"
Oh, man.
Anyways, as for the summer i plan on finishing the kanji left (it's over a thousand but it doesn't seem too many, now) and watching 14 movies by Kurosawa, 2 by Ozu, 5 by Iwai, 2 by Aoyama and whatever i find by Wakamatsu. I'm also gonna get on further into China and try whatever i can in Chinese. And i gotta study some poems in Anient Greek and Latin for the next year in school. Lots of time i'll spent on a chair. Thank goodness i hate hot weather.
Have a nice summer, everyone.
I lie. Learning Japanese keeps me warm at night.
I'm definitly going to commit myself to the kanji, since that'll make the rest a hell of a lot easier! =D
Thanks Koichi m(_ _)m
<33
http://clvweb.cord.edu/prweb/japanese/japanese.asp
Also, for college-age students, Middlebury has a well-known and well respected (and intense) summer language immersion program for many languages, including Japanese.
I get what you're saying, but the whole 'schedule/study a little bit at a time' method doesn't work with me. I like to live a fairly unstructured life. I'm one of those people that can pick up a textbook months later and still remember about 80% or more of what I learned. Thankfully. But, for tofugu's sake, next year when I finally do start taking some lessons I will think about this article and try to review, at least once.
Regarding the whole "reaching native speaker's level" topic, it is very true. Unless you were raised in a home where Japanese was spoken regularly by native speakers, it's pretty unlikely to ever get to the point where you are seamlessly integrated into the language. I mean, thinking about English, most of us native speakers don't even understand our own language sometimes! Truly, none of us will ever be able to speak a language perfectly, no slip-ups or things unknown. It's human to make mistakes and not to be perfect, let's just accept that and move on!
When I am speaking Japanese, I will somethings deliberately bring out my American accent. I just kind of have this unconscious feeling like I am patronizing Japanese people when I speak too acurately. It feels like when you imitate someone as a way to make fun of them. It bugs me even though I know a native speaker would never see it as insulting and would probably understand me 10 times better. And then there are words like ケーキ which are transliterated directly from English and I wonder if I should pronounce it like I would in English or say it with the superfluous (at least in English) u/o/i. I guess it's just a neurosis that I'll have to get over.
Anyway it pains me to see people arguing over personal opinion. There are always going to be exceptions to every rule. Just let it be, we are all people wanting to learn a language for more reasons than one. Just learn the language and argue about what sushi to pick tonight at a restaurant.
as for the whole 'native level' issue i don't really understand what the big deal is . . . some people can just naturally pick up languages or they worked extra hard in order to obtain their language skills . . . not everyone can do it, only a few talented gifted souls can . . . but as long as you put in a good amount of effort you'll do fine . . .
btw . . . i just started my class! . . . it is so much fun! . . . i can't wait for tomorrow!
When I study I need to follow a schedule, I add everything to my calendar because if I don't, I end up saying "I'll do it later" to myself. Using a calendar helps me focus even if I don't feel like studying at all, skipping calendar events makes me feel bad while skipping something I just said to myself (like "I'll study in 2 hours") isn't too bad.
but.. yay for being humble
Nice article
I'm just beginning learning Japanese and look forward to the new experiences that will bring.
What you really need is a guide on how to pull away from Japanese and do boring stuff... like conic sections.
but i really want to learn it! and i know that i cant through osmosis, though that would be freaking awesome if i could!! anywho, i really appreciate your blogs and vlogs cuz i've learned a lot from you and are using your resources. i did just randomly come across it as i was searching youtube for japanese lessons and your panda hat and the title "learn japanese while watching anime NOT!" really intrigued me and i havent gone back since. and i'm so glad that i havent! ive watched your koichiben vids as well and i really want to be able to understand that so i'm going to try to do some hard core studying!! (sorry this is soooo long! it wasnt intentional!! ^_^)
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-j...
In one of your previous videos, koichi, you commented that you thought your Japanese could never be native level. You also said said Japanese people who come to America would never have native level English. Speak for yourself. You may always have flawed, broken Japanese, but some of us won't. No offense intended.
I certainly don't think it's the best it could be, and I'm working hard at it, but I also don't think I'll ever become as perfect as someone who was born in Japan and raised speaking Japanese. Even if you are able to speak fluently, which is much much different from speaking at native level, it's very difficult and rare to understand all of the cultural and societal implications behind language without having been raised in that culture. You could spend your entire life studying the language, and never understand these things 100%. I even know non-Japanese who have lived in Japan for 20+ years. Their Japanese is great. Very fluent. Still, there is always something that makes their Japanese a little different from Japanese natives.
Still, if you reach native Japanese ability, please let me know. I'll be waiting for your proof. And jeesh, don't comment as anonymous. Not helping your credibility very much.
My first language is Japanese...my second is English.
1. Anonymous commenting kind of bugs me.
2. While I definitely feel that Japanese students can communicate at a level which would lead native speakers to assume they are fluent, there will always be problems with their speaking, small or not. One of my professors (a Japanese linguist) gave a lecture a few semesters ago about something she had learned at a linguistics conference. What it boiled down to was that, at a fundamental level, native Japanese speakers and Japanese students approach the language differently, by which I mean that their brains use completely different pathways when hearing/speaking Japanese. This difference is uncorrectable; Japanese students, fluent as they may seem/be will never reach complete fluency, and they will never be as "good" at the Japanese language as native speakers are. And it's probably the same for all languages.
I don't know, this is just my (probably incoherent, as I just woke up) two cents on the issue. I agree that the video would probably have been better without that last comment about the likeliness of achieving Japanese fluency. Your hostile tone (despite your half-hearted "no offense intended") and exaggerated criticism of Koichi's Japanese (which, while not fluent, is more than sufficient for communication), though, makes me feel like you were disturbed/threatened by the idea that you'll never have "perfect" Japanese. And, hey, I might be wrong, but you probably won't. You can come pretty close, though. The comment, while flippant, definitely wasn't meant to be taken personally, so I suggest you don't let it keep you up at night.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-j...
The next link is by two poles who learned English to a native-level.
http://www.antimoon.com/
It's okay to be wrong some times. By the way, come to think of it, we are both correct. Yes, if you learn Japanese by studying "30 minutes 5 times a week" you will sound foreign. However, if you study a language like the people above did, then you can have native level Japanese/English.
"it's very difficult and rare to understand all of the cultural and societal implications behind language without having been raised in that culture."
Quite frankly, I have never heard anything so unlogical. I think comments like that are just to protect your own insecurities in your Japanese ability. Seriously, lets take English for an example. Their is not any magical "cultural and societal implications" behind language. Languages are just a set number of sounds and symbols that any human being can learn. For more info, check out the following link.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/stop-...
"Quite frankly, I have never heard anything so unlogical. I think comments like that are just to protect your own insecurities in your Japanese ability."
First of all, "unlogical" isn't a word. Second, I'm not sure where I've ever been insecure. In fact, I am very open about my japanese level, and I've been taking the time to try and improve it. As for the alljapaneseallthetime links you keep spamming (is this your website, or something?), I can't really comment, since I've never seen the person speak, nor have I met the author in person. It's a nice blog, sure, but doesn't really prove what you're saying.
"Seriously, lets take English for an example. Their is not any magical "cultural and societal implications" behind language. "
If you don't see the cultural and societal implications behind language, then I suppose there's nothing for me to say to you about it. If you don't understand it, then you don't understand it. That's cool, like I said, it's very difficult to understand if you don't grow up in that culture. Maybe it requires study in linguistics to notice it as well.
I'll concede a little bit for you, though. Every once in a while, once in a very very blue moon, someone will reach "native level" of another language, as in, there is absolutely no way to tell that that person is speaking the said language as a second language. Maybe one in a million language learners can achieve this. Very rare, right? On the other hand, MANY people can become "fluent" in another language, i.e., the ability to communicate well/comfortably in the said second language. There's a big difference between the two, I think, and the former is almost impossible to achieve. I'm not here to hurt anyone's feelings. I'm just trying to be realistic and help people. For most people, when you try too hard at something all at once, they will get burned out and quit. That's just how it is.
Lastly, I'm not here to insult you, but apparently you ARE here to insult me. I already think you're lying about your identity, and your regular pot-shots at me certainly aren't helping your credibility. I'm out here, in the public, everything already on the table. I'm open about my history, my language ability, etc. It's easy for someone to try and discredit me from the shadows and make claims that can't be backed up. That's all I think this is right now, I think everyone would appreciate if you came out into the open. C'mon, I don't even know where you live! I don't know your history with English language study. I've never heard you speak English. if I wasn't on youtube/didn't provide picture evidence, I could very easily say I am a Japanese native who learned English this well. Maybe you'd gain yourself some credibility if you came out, eh? :)
But, frankly, "rareness" is overestimated. Look at Tofugu. How many people here don't have English as a mother tongue and are still able to come across as perfectly (whatever that means) fluent, native speakers? I have seen people from Sweden, Finland etc. And of course a more solid example; I have never been to America or England, nor have i ever met an American or British. I got where i am now by taking in information, by being sincerely interested in English, it's arts and sciences, the people it represents and their history. I firmly believe that it's not due to any special quality that we have (besides of course any "genetic" characteristcs that by their nature should be overlooked, since they mean nil if not cultivated), but to the personal interest we put in. The fact that not too many people develop such deep knowledge (which resembles more wisdom than just "knowing") is because not too many people are sincerely, wholeheartedly interested in making a language a very part of themselves, essentially getting to understand a part of the world better.
Anyways, i just wanted to state my views because you presented the "rareness" of linguistic freedom in a way that kinda bugged me. Maybe you were just trying to come off as warm and polite, but don't put the possibility that way down. And if you just wanted to sound realistic, then here i am to say that i handle English well enough and i know others who do as well. And i'm sure the same goes for any language.
And finally, let me say that i'm so glad that sites like to Tofugu are out there, allowing us to develop ideas like these and talking to other people about them. Tofugu rocks in many ways :)
That aside, I have another example of learning other languages and never becoming fully fluent in them. I've been studying German for six years and spent the first four months of this year in Germany studying abroad. Now, six years is nothing as far as learning German. I know for a solid fact that, although I'm able to communicate fairly well with Germans, I'm nowhere near perfect. However, the Germans I spoke to (most of them anyways) have been studying English since their equivalent of elementary school. Even Germans who would be considered, for all intents and purposes, 'fluent' still had problems sometimes understanding what I was saying when I spoke in English. For the most part, I could speak English at a regular pace and they would understand me but every once in a while I would have to stop and explain something to them or translate a word for them.
So... Long story short, I'm in complete agreement with Koichi. :)
Words are always worth more than face value, and it's hard to understand the deep subtextual meaning of words unless you grew up using them. I hope that one day I can become fluent in at least Spanish and Japanese, but I strongly doubt that I would ever be able to communicate in Spanish or Japanese in a way that would make me linguistically indistinguishable from a native speaker.
"Oh you want proof Koichi? Below is a website by someone who learned Japanese to a native-level.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-j...
That's funny though because the author of that website doesn't provide any proof that he actually speaks Japanese at a native speaker's level. What he does do though is pimp amazon books with referral links that will probably bring in a good amount of money from people who buy into his ideas. That's probably not a bad business plan, because a lot of people who study Japanese, from my perception, are pop culture afficionados (which is of course fine) with little motivation to study hard and little tolerance for delayed gratification (which is terrible).
Second, and I know this sounds condescending and conservative, some of us just don't want to learn "real Japanese" if by real Japanese one means the Japanese used in anime and manga. Or the Japanese used by Japanese young people. Some people simply prefer formal, erudite Japanese with heavy use of keigo. That's just my opinion of course, and I'm probably an old fogey for thinking that way. Still, I think it's quite assuming for people to think that informal speech is somehow "more real" than grown-ups' speech. You won't learn the latter by just watching anime 8 hours a day (assuming you'll learn anything at all that way if you're over 16...). Our teachers always told us that extracurricular material (e.g. TV) are necessary to enhance your abilities, but cannot be used as a basis for learning any language.
And finally, the idea that language is just a bunch of words with no cultural or societal implications is simply naive. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypoth...
honestly.. my broken ebonics vs correct grammar, as high as it may be.. so totally suck, the only thing that seperates me from someone not from here is my confidence when aproaching words to interact with others.. i dont have to use the right words all the time, but theres little reason to do that.. there are things i can say to certain ppl in a certain way.. that if i say to others, the same exact way, they wouldnt understand a word.. understanding the difference between conversing between age/gender, age/race, gender/racial preference, social status/cultural interests, etc etc.. that has alot to say about speaking natively.confidence and knowing when to take your vernacular handbook and toss it out the window and just be relaxed and at the drop of a dime change it yet again if the situation calls for it., that takes a lot of understanding and reasoning from a native speaker alone.. maybe you CAN imitate accurately enough to fool ppl in low pressure situations.. but be interrogated having to embody multiple points of views mentally and render yourself to expression beyond just speaking and writing.. but body gestures and movements.. a person can NOT break the facts and habits behind what formed their squishy little brains first without their being a special reason for it. to clam to be a native speaker is somewhat insulting to anyones language without a person throwing theres whole self into first trying the falsify their authenticity amoungst a groups or groups of ppl that live a totally different life than that whom wants to claim native.. if your super young.. yea.. possibly. i think you can do a good transition between then.. but you are bound to say things a bit awkwardly no mater what.. if you think in english, and translate it to what fits.. or visa versa then that alone says something about your nativeness... and if you discard your original background and culture for anothers.. just to reach this lvl to communicate.. then something is very wrong with you...
haha ima learn this as efficiently as possible. dont know if its quicker to learn to speak it first and write it sometime later. what you think?
Being able to read / write will really help with grammar, too. Gives you a good idea who the structure of the language stands up, and overall will give you a much deeper foundation.
let me know if im not making sense
i think its feasible
you much more awesomer than correct grammar will allow me to express